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daveyg 12:14 Sun Mar 29
Rob Shepherd has it right...

On the subject of giving home grown talent a chance.

Take West Ham - they have taken 33-year-old Brazilian Nene, who is effectively past it, for the rest of the season on a free transfer, to plug a gap rather than recall promising 20-year-old forward Elliot Lee from his spell at Luton.
Given the Hammers are safe from relegation surely there could be no better time to really find out about the striker - son of Newcastle legend Rob Lee - who made one first team appearance THREE years ago.
But Sam Allardyce does not have a good track record for bringing young players through.

Exactly what many of us have been saying for ages.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3016173/Harry-Kane-set-new-Tottenham-contract-worth-near-six-figures-Chelsea-Manchester-City-battle-Gareth-Bale-Arsenal-want-Marco-Reus.html#ixzz3VlaJYI3N

Mr Kenzo 3:37 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

Steven Fletcher has just bought a £260,000 Lamborghini Aventador. Not bad for a bit part player who has scored 7 times in 2 years.

Pancho 3:33 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

And there should be a wage cap for players until they are 19.

I'd go even higher to be honest...

21/22/23...

whufcroe 3:30 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

Young players need experience and that's almost impossible to gain in the Premier League but if you have the talent, you have the drive and you go and gain the experience and show what you can do then your chance at the Premier League will come along.

Aaron Cresswell is a prime example, he got bombed out of a Premier League club, dropped down and worked his way up and now should really be in the England team.

The biggest problem is young players earn to much and are to pampered and think they have made it when that is far from the case. I've seen that over West Ham far to much.

They shouldn't be allowed an agent until they are 21 and should be looked after by the PFA.

They should go back to cleaning the changing room and senior players boots etc etc.

And there should be a wage cap for players until they are 19.

, 3:20 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

This country is producing plenty of good young professional players and they're not overpaid either. They play in the Championship.

The Premiership now is a step change above what was required fifteen years ago in terms of player ability. Have our coaching standards moved on and up to cope with the up to date need.

Alex V 3:16 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

>>> If we played players who wouldn't even make much impact in League 1 on loan, that's exactly where we'd be heading.

Of course it depends how many you play at once, for how much of a match etc.

But this is the basic doomsday scenario that I presume is being used every time a youth is discussed at an English club. Some youths don't even go on loan, so no wonder they never get picked. To me this attitude doesn't solve the issue. It just perpetuates a status quo that isn't much use.

Willtell 3:12 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

That's a sillier argument than what Alex V said Pancho. This is a big football mad country where kids with talent get opportunities. There is no way a Spanish or Brazilian kid should be naturally better than an English kid.

But other countries seem to do better and I think that has more to do with the drive to succeed. When you are poor the desire to get out of poverty is enormously motivating.

In England kids get well paid and offered contracts with more money than their parents ever earned in their teens. They start to think they have made it. The training starts to play 2nd fiddle to night clubs and pulling girls. Girls that their looks alone would never pull mostly.

Ravel Morrison is I suspect, typical. Done sweet FA in football but wasting his talents and no doubt earning £1m pa. Dropped by Man Utd and West Ham. Not taken by QPR but Lazio are still prepared to take a chance...

Alex V 3:09 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

stewie griffin 3:02 Tue Mar 31

Good point. Although that doesn't necessarily speak for volume of talent. The problem England has for example, right now is that we can turn out a good set of players, but there are virtually no alternatives playing regularly at a high level.

I agree with you, as my point 1 states. There's just no reason in theory to believe there should be less talent being produced. The problem (or opportunity) being that it just isn't being utilised.

stewie griffin 3:02 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

As a nation.

All the various sliced bread nations, such as Germany, Belgium, Spain etc have inferior records of qualifying for the U21 championships, for example.
Our age group level performances and results compare favourably with anyone's.

i-Ron 3:02 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

If we played players who wouldn't even make much impact in League 1 on loan, that's exactly where we'd be heading. You're affectively asking Allardyce & The Club to not spend any money, and field a weakened side every week? Are you fucking bonkers?

Considering your 'let's sell everyone and play the youth', the fact we're currently in the top half of the premiership.... surely must make you think that, perhaps you had it totally wrong.

And all of the players you'd have played at the point in time, have struggled make impact at any other club, despite dropping down.

Pancho 3:01 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

Straw man argument? You just used it to book-end a point where you made no other references you daft cunt!

Alex V 2:59 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

>>> I don't think the players we produce are in any way inferior to others, V son.

Do you mean as a nation? Or at West Ham?

Alex V 2:58 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

>>> Eh? So you just need to be football mad?

I didn't say you 'just' need to be football mad. A straw man argument.

Pancho 2:57 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

"I don't believe that there's any reason why other countries should have better talent coming through than us. This is a football-mad country"

Eh? So you just need to be football mad?

What about infrastructure? Money distribution to grass roots, youth setup, school setups, Sunday league setups...

Bizarre comment.

stewie griffin 2:55 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

I don't think the players we produce are in any way inferior to others, V son.

Alex V 2:51 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

>>> As a guess his argument would likely be...

Rather than you making up stuff, why don't I make an argument. Or a set of them.

1 - I don't believe that there's any reason why other countries should have better talent coming through than us. This is a football-mad country.

2 - Therefore given the poor situation for youth in this country compared to others, talented players who could have made the grade are very likely getting missed or are being misdeveloped.

3 - We should be angry about this, but we should also realise as a club that this is an opportunity. Talent is being underappreciated and underdeveloped, and a canny operator should exploit that.

4 - I don't believe in the 'talent conquers all' myth, where some players are just destined to always make it. I think luck is a very strong factor.

5 - I think there's an unhealthy obsession with top of the line talent at clubs. Striking for gold all the time. When actually the demands of squad management in the modern game means that you need a spread of options. We don't need every youth to be Rio.

6 - I don't think any club in our situation can succeed without youth. Rather than being a side issue, it is THE issue. We are only as good as our current youth development, because it's the only resource I can see that we can exploit to eventually beat the best. Buying in players can paper over the cracks, sometimes for long periods, but we simply cannot outspend our rivals as it stands. And actually, bringing through a few exceptional youth players is not good enough either, as they will be picked off for better opportunities elsewhere. We need a strong production line of youth to create a wave of talent to stand any chance - it is the only way to have a chance to be the best. If anyone can think of another way I'd love to hear it.

7 - On that basis I think, broadly speaking, we should be constantly bringing our youth players through. Doing anything else is papering over the cracks, betraying the only workable philosophy that could one day bring us true success.

stewie griffin 2:30 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

I wouldn't overthink it, V?

Its pretty straightforward, he didn't do particularly well out on loan and was on his way out of Spurs. He got a chance under Tim Sherwood in the second half of last season, and didn't do anything special. He begun this season 3rd choice behind Adebayor and Soldado. He got a chance in the Europa League against weaker opposition, and took it. That coincided with the other two not being able to hit a cow's arse with a banjo, which made it impossible to leave him out of League games.

When he got his chance this time, he took it. No great mystery or even anything necssarily quantifiable. He was in the right place at the right time - like most things in life - and took his opportunity when it arose.

Alex V 2:22 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

>>> Well I can see what he does well, he has a strikers instinct of being in the right place at the right time

Agreed based on this campaign. Strikes me as the sort of thing that might be hard to evaluate on the training pitch, and even if you did you'd have to hope that could be replicated in match situations. My point being that it's all very well to retrofit some idea of pre-destined stardom to Kane now, as if he was always going to make it, but I just don't think that's the way it was. He wasn't in their first 11 at the start of this season.

Trevor B 12:41 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

His positioning and anticipation, reading of the build up, is very good. If you are half a second ahead of the opposition because you have read the game better then you don't always need pace, fancy footwork etc.

Reality Cheques 12:40 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

"Haha another Alex V classic"

As a guess his argument would likely be that he isn’t particularly special & all that’s happened is that Harry Kane has been given an opportunity & if other young players at WH were given that opportunity then we’d at least potentially end up with a Harry Kane, sooner rather than later.

Of course that argument would be nonsense if that’s what he’s really alluding to. It would be based on blind faith as much of his points are surrounding youth players etc. I’d certainly take Dario Gradi’s assessment of current youth players attitudes ( poor) & what happens in the real footballing world than I would over some fluffy make believe wishful thinking & often nonsensical world that is frequently portrayed by Alex on this issue.

However, regarding Kane I certainly agree with Sir Alf in that I’ll look at his second season to see how he copes with added expectations & likely closer attention from the opposition. As to what he does well it’s fairly obvious frankly. So far & I stress so far , his shown an excellent work ethic & a cool head & particularly a cool head as a finisher. The latter is worth its weight in gold to any team & not many have it . Whether it maintains that is another matter.

One thing I would agree with Alex is that there are a lot of average ability players in the P/L & I wouldn’t class them as extraordinary at all. However, of course the ability is all relative when comparing. Personally I think he’s taken FC’s use of the word “ extraordinary” & repeatedly trying to hone in on that & use that almost solely to base a counter argument. Again, his opinion that Sears , Hines etc did OK in the P/L , I totally disagree with. They were OK for a brief period in certain games but mainly poor to rubbish in others. They were lightweight & I’m not just talking physically either, but all aspects of their play be that ability & or attitude.

Far Cough 12:37 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

Well I can see what he does well, he has a strikers instinct of being in the right place at the right time, something that Greaves, Gerd Muller, Lineker and Cottee had in abundance

i-Ron 12:13 Tue Mar 31
Re: Rob Shepherd has it right...

I can kind of see where Alex is coming from. There's nothing particular that stands out, like pace, dazzling footwork, headers etc.

He's a grafter, and has an uncanny knack of finding the net with both feet and his head, from inside and outside the area. Bit of an all rounder.

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